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И тебя мороженого! [сент. 15, 2016|01:00 pm]
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[gnomygnomy]
(edited spelling)

Hello, all! I have another question about usage. :)

So in this snippet, the two are talking about ice cream. I want to make sure I understand the cases at work in these responses, which appear to me to be elliptical.

1 Mom: что ты хочешь, чтобы мама тебе купила?
2 Kid: мороженое!
3 Mom: какое?
4 Kid: жёлтое.
5 Mom: а шоколадное?
6 Kid: и шоколадное хочу смешать .
7 Mom: а ещё что?
8 Kid: и с ним будет леденец рядом .
9 Mom: ага, ещё что?
10 Kid: ничё
11 Kid: и тебя мороженого!
12 Kid: и милы мороженое!

In line 2, мороженое is an elliptical response in accusative case. Is line 3 also accusative? And therefore line 4? And 5?

In line 11, I think the kid is saying "and ice cream for you!" I think the kid left out "для" in this sentence. This is sort of a minor question, but is there a significant difference between saying "это для тебя" vs "это тебе"?

In a completely separate part of the tape, the child is talking about an episode of a kids' show (Лунтик и его друзья, if you're wondering). In the story, a character dresses up as a ghost in order to frighten his friends. The kid in the recording says the friends run around scared, shouting, "спасение от привидения!" Is that an appropriate thing to shout? As opposed to something like, "спаси меня!" or "помоги! это привидение!"

Thank you for any insight you can provide!
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: zwilling
2016-09-15 06:19 pm
I can say two things for sure:
1. Мороженое is spelled with one "н".
2. You are definitely better at Russian than some Russian-speaking kids :)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 06:55 pm
Really?? My spellchecker has failed me!

My Russian might be better than some kids', but it's still nowhere near where it probably should be for the time I've put into it and the exposure I've gotten. That's what I get for taking so many breaks!

:)
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[User Picture]From: hyyudu
2016-09-15 07:44 pm
No, it doesn't. Мороженное with 2 "н" is gerund (мороженное мясо, for example), and ice cream is written with 1 "н"
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 07:56 pm
Ahhhhhhhhhh.That's a great example. Thank you. :)
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 08:08 pm
мороженое мясо is also spelled with one н
замороженное мясо - with two
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[User Picture]From: hyyudu
2016-09-15 08:37 pm
Мороженое (adjective) мясо, but мороженное (gerund) мясо. Замороженное is also gerund.
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 08:48 pm
See Rosenthal, p.52-2
"В отглагольных прилагательных, образованных от бесприставочных глаголов несовершенного вида, пишется одно н, например: правленый, вяленый, жареный, варёный, мочёный, кипячёный, глаженый, кованый, кошеный, стриженый, стираный, ломаный, мощёный, плетёный, гружёный, плавленый, мороженый..."
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[User Picture]From: hyyudu
2016-09-15 09:20 pm
Ok, you're right. Two letters would be in "Мясо, мороженное в холодильнике" or something like this.
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[User Picture]From: zwilling
2016-09-15 08:03 pm
Н/НН-regarding rules are a bit of pain in the ass, see the link in the thread below :)

You're welcome here!
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 06:23 pm
First of all, мороженое as in ice-cream is spelled with one n, not to be confused with participles like замороженный.
Second, I think the child was just joking, saying: "And [I also want] you, frozen!"
Alternatively it might have been "тебЕ" - И тебе мороженого! - An ice cream for you, too.

"Спасение от привидения" sounds very strange. A natural thing to scream in this situation would be "спасите, привидение!" On the other hand, it could be anything as children say lots of things at this age, they are experimenting with language (see Korney Chukovsky's lovely book "От двух до пяти").
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 07:25 pm
I appreciate the spellcheck there. That word appears frequently in the document and I'm confused about why my Russian spellchecker didn't pick up on it. :\

The kid definitely says тебЯ, but she's also laughing and being silly, so maybe? The next thing she said was "и Милы мороженое!" Looking back, I should have included that line in the original post. I'll edit it now.

Thank you for the book recommendation! I'm on it.
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 07:30 pm
Because мороженный (and all possible variations) is also a word. It just does not mean ice-cream.
This is a very confusing issue that even many native speakers are not comfortable with. See p.52 here http://www.evartist.narod.ru/text1/34.htm
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 08:51 pm
After careful reflection, I have decided that I'm not comfortable with it either. :D

Thanks for the link! I'll keep it as a reference.
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 08:52 pm
Yes, Rosenthal is a go-to reference in everything related to Russian grammar and punctuation.
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 11:18 pm
Would you say the Rosenthal book is considered a definitive reference grammar that native speakers use? Kind of like how native English speakers consider Oxford as THE dictionary for English? (I'm more of a Webster girl, personally, but I get the sense Oxford is preferred.)
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[User Picture]From: oryx_and_crake
2016-09-15 11:19 pm
Yes, Rosenthal is something like The Grammar Bible of the Russian grammar for native speakers. Whenever there is a dispute on something language-related, we start throwing snippets from Rosenthal at each other :-)

Edited at 2016-09-15 23:20 (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-15 11:41 pm
Ordered a copy. :)
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[User Picture]From: hyyudu
2016-09-15 07:48 pm
Probably kid has mistaken with cases. "И Милы мороженое" can mean "And Mila's ice cream (too)", i.e. she wants to eat both her own ice cream and Mila's. But maybe she wanted to say "И Миле мороженое", "And bring ice cream for Mila"
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[User Picture]From: karakal
2016-09-15 08:29 pm
With no other context available, I would guess:

11 Kid: и тебе мороженого!
12 Kid: и Миле мороженое!

The cases for мороженое are ok in both sentences. But the kid's pronuciation is just what it is :)


Edited at 2016-09-15 20:30 (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: orie
2016-09-15 08:30 pm
yes, in lines 3, 4 and 5 there's accusative

"спасение" is a noun derived from verb ("отглагольное существительное"), and here it looks as a normal sentence to me, with a touch of joke (kids are using this noun two make it sound like a small poem).
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-16 12:07 am
Actually, yes, she did say it in kind of a sing-song way. So my understanding is that it is fine as a sentence, just not the way people would normally speak. Which could be the result of her being playful with her words.

Thank you for your input! :)
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[User Picture]From: orie
2016-09-15 08:31 pm
I think he/she wants to say "и тебе мороженого, и миле мороженого", but he/she is not yet very confident with Russian cases
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[User Picture]From: spiritrc
2016-09-17 05:08 am
This is not the first time you mention these child recordings and I keep wondering how old is the child? Sounds to me like you are trying to understand speech of a baby who is also just learning to talk. Is it so?
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-10-12 03:28 am
Wow! I'm so sorry I missed this comment. The child in these recordings is 4 years and 3 months. So I wouldn't say quite a baby (I have actual baby recordings, too!), but I do get the impression from the feedback in other posts that her grammar has lots of maturing to do. Thank you for your question!
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