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More confusing child speech [сент. 11, 2016|03:37 pm]
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[gnomygnomy]
Here's the context:

Mom: а кто там ещё был из деток с вами ?
Kid: раз пять шесть четыре и всё
Kid: нас было пять и ещё . (could also have said всё, it's not clear)
Mom: а детки были из вашей группы ?
Kid: нашей с цыплёнок .

Background info: The kid is talking about her groups at school. Her group, I think, is the chicks group. There's another group called the rainbow group.

This is what I think is being said:

Mom: and who among the children was still there with you?
Kid: one, five, six, four and that's it
Kid: there were five of us and more (or, "and that's it")
Mom: but the kids were from your group?
Kid: (from) our (group) with.. um.. chicken? (THIS IS WHERE I'M LOST)

How can I make sense of the fifth line, or is it another example of ungrammatical (and therefore nonsensical) speech?

Another question: Can садик be a short word for детский сад?

Thank you, all!
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: janelight
2016-09-11 08:42 pm
Something is wrong with what the kid says ) Being native Russian, I am still confused. Нашей с цыпленок is not grammatically correct, nor is clear. I suppose, your guess is the best in this case.
And yes, садик is a common replacement for детский сад.
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-11 08:53 pm
Well, in this recording, she just turned 4. She's still figuring things out, I guess!

Thank you for clearing that up! :)
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[User Picture]From: icamel
2016-09-12 07:40 am
Probably she omitted word "группы" - с нашей, с группы Цыпленок.
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 02:27 am
That is a pattern that's been coming up in the audio. I find myself now "looking" for words that were left out, as she tends to either leave them out or leave them incomplete.
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[User Picture]From: mithrilian
2016-09-11 09:51 pm
The last line could be:

M: but the kids were from *your* group, right?
K: С нашей, с "Цыпленок".

Which is an elliptical answer with the full version like this:

Да, присутствовавшие дети были из нашей группы, из нашей группы "Цыпленок".

"с нашей" is colloquial "из нашей", с=из.

This was easy and obvious for me as a native. However, the first answer is off. I guess, the kid has not mastered counting yet.

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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 02:23 am
That's an interesting topic, too. I need to research what linguists are saying about child mastery of numbers and such. It's a bit afield of what I'm doing at the moment, but could be useful to know later.

And thank you for your help. :)
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[User Picture]From: nesposoben
2016-09-11 09:56 pm
Excuse me, what is the source of these phrases?
"recording" is like what? Video?

Your kid has sort of language lessons in age of 4 at school/kindergarten and they speak Russian on classes? And you're new to Russian?

Mom: but the kids were from your group?
kid: [omitted:Yes] [from] Ours. From 'Chick' [group].

Correct answer [Да] [из] нашей. Из "ЦыплёнКА" (=родительный падеж https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case#Russian)
'c' is allowed vernacular form of preposition 'из' (=from)

Also the teacher ('Mom') probably is native Russian speaker, and speaks childishly with her class just to give some time to submerge into sound of new language, grammar will be corrected later.


UPD: читал блог, беру свои слова назад, у вас очень хороший Русский :)

Edited at 2016-09-11 22:22 (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 02:17 am
Thank you! I will probably spend the rest of my life trying to master this language. I'm okay with that. :)
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[User Picture]From: lion_casserole
2016-09-11 10:35 pm
.
I would correct this to produce a meaningful conversation

Mom: А кто там ещё был из деток с вами ?
Kid: Раз, пять, шесть, четыре и всё. ( it seems the kid does not remember the order of numbers here )
Kid: Нас было пятеро и все.
Mom: А детки [ все ] были из вашей группы ?
Kid: Из нашей, [ из группы ] "Цыплёнок".

Mom: And who else of the children was there with you?
Kid: One, five, six, two, three, four, and that's it. There were five of us only.
Mom: Were all the kids from your group?
Kid: Yes, all from our group "Yellows" (meaning "Baby-Chickens").

Your guess is perfectly right, the word "садик" normally would be used instead of "детский сад".


Edited at 2016-09-11 22:49 (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 01:55 am
That does make it more meaningful! It's not something I can really correct, though. The task, for me, is to make decisions about the grammatical accuracy of every sentence the child says. Most of the time, it's very straightforward. But then there are times like these! I guess the problem I face, essentially, is that it's not always clear to me if certain things are acceptable. For example, how the с is an acceptable substitute for из in this case.

And now I'm wondering, is it ungrammatical to say "нас было пять"?? Or does it absolutely have to be пятеро?

Thank you for your input! :)
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[User Picture]From: lion_casserole
2016-09-13 03:12 am

Oh, boy, that is a task, no kidding

.
I guess, kids are inventing their own languages using patterns of adult's conversations. That is pretty common for adult Russians to verbalize grammatically incorrect sentences. Kids do not have enough experience, so they cannot filter out or correct improper wording. they are repeating after adults. For an example, while this "с группы" instead of "из группы" is NOT grammatically correct, an adult Russian would accept it with no problem, and it becomes a part of kids self-education. As a result in some regions of Russia it would be nowadays recognized as pretty usual, while it is NOT the "Queen's Russian," sorry for my French. :)

Then, I would not say "Нас было пять" instead of "Нас было пятеро", however I would say "У нас было пять собак" instead of "У нас было пятеро собак." I could not provide a universal rule, that is from my experience - a result of learning Russian from really good school teaches.

My own implementation of Russian is a result of living in many regions of former USSR - Ukraine ( Crimea ), Russia ( Leningrad ), Ukraine ( Kharkov ), some small towns all over the country, as well as in some Russian-speaking communities in Germany. I had an opportunity to hear some regional dialects, while the foundation of my Russian was created by teachers from Moscow and Leningrad. The last but not least - my wife is a graduated professional in Russian language. I am sorry for this off-top, I just needed to tell that to explain why I would not react to some faults in others' Russian : what could be considered being a fault in Moscow is pretty good for guys in Ukraine and vice versa. Some people do not care if their Russian ( of English ) is good enough. Some Russians can successfully use a grammatically incorrect regional version of Russian language and living happy under the motto "Мы университетов не кончали".
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[User Picture]From: zoa_mel_gustar
2016-09-12 03:55 am
In the Russian kindergarden images of cute animals and such are usually used to devide the groups, so the kids would recognize their ocker rooms and so on without being able to read.
But yeah, the kid still have problems with forms of words (or their speech was written incorrectly).
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 12:22 am
The text is coming from what I hear in the audio, so any written mistakes are very much my own. I have no doubt a native speaker would breeze through these tapes more efficiently than I am able.

After listening to it on slow playback multiple times, I feel about 90% confident this is what she said in that instance. But that other 10% is enough to shake my confidence, naturally. :)
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[User Picture]From: mashysya
2016-09-12 07:17 am
Maybe "нашей с пелёнок"?
Но это выражение используется обычно взрослыми: "они дружат с пелёнок", то есть, с самого раннего детства.
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 12:23 am
I'll have to remember that expression for myself when talking with old friends. :)
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[User Picture]From: sobaka_by
2016-09-12 07:52 am
I'm native russian speaker but even I can't catch the meaning of what kid want to tell.

Edited at 2016-09-12 07:54 (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: dil
2016-09-12 01:15 pm
Most of it doesn't make any sense. Where did you take this context from?
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-12 11:50 pm
It's a conversation sample. I have tons of audio I have to go through, most of which is workable for me. But then there are bits like this that challenge my understanding of even the basics of Russian grammar! :)
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[User Picture]From: dil
2016-09-13 09:31 am
Can you provide this particular audio for downloading? I could listen to it and check what they are speaking indeed.
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[User Picture]From: zwilling
2016-09-12 02:13 pm
(offtopic)
I keep wondering why so many people don't read comments before posting their own.
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[User Picture]From: wolk_off
2016-09-12 04:15 pm
Er... because they don't care? (Your rusty community moderator)
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[User Picture]From: zwilling
2016-09-12 04:28 pm
Yeah, that's the problem. Or not a problem, if you don't care. (Does you mentioning being a moderator mean I'm pushing some limits?)
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[User Picture]From: wolk_off
2016-09-12 04:40 pm
Not at all, it's just me being knee-deep in happy tears. A real post in the community I considered dead for years!

:)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 02:38 am
I've always enjoyed this community! It's LiveJournal I sort of walked away from. It's because I really exposed my childishness in my early 20s with my journal and sort of cringe at what I chose to share. But for talking about Russian with people who like talking about Russian, I can't think of a better place to go than this community.

Didja hear that? Learn_Russian brought me back! :D
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[User Picture]From: wolk_off
2016-09-13 06:59 am
(bows deep)
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 12:08 am
I know what you mean! But in this case, I really enjoy people giving redundant or very similar responses. That way I get multiple people confirming (or dismissing, as it happens) something for me, which makes me more confident in my understanding of a word, phrase or usage. I think it's great when you're learning. :)
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[User Picture]From: zwilling
2016-09-13 09:16 am
At least make some statistics out of that stuff, right :)
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[User Picture]From: karakal
2016-09-12 08:40 pm
In addition to what's already been said:

Kid: нас было пять и ещё

I guess и ещё is и сё, which in the girl child's language means и всё.
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[User Picture]From: gnomygnomy
2016-09-13 02:20 am
I went back and listened and that's definitely possible. Her speech sounds are not so great, so sometimes she says щ when she's trying to say с and vice versa. She said всё very clearly in other instances, but this could have been a time that she missed the mark.
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